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Shaf
Starting Member
8 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 04:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Vassor Doss
Good point about her possibly "growing" more beautiful as she nears womanhood. Gendry does seem to be somewhat attracted to her, or at least he's a bit flirty. She may have grown out of the "horse face" when she began her teens. I don't think Martin really describes her as "horse like" after she leaves King's Landing. He never says that she looks beautiful when she's made to wear dresses (when she's with Dondarrion). I think Martin only mentions that she's uncomfortable in them, not necessarily how see looks physically. I guess I just assumed that she's still ugly.
Part of that is also that Martin rigidly adheres to the first person POV's. We haven't seen Arya through the eyes of anyone but Arya (except for the very brief AFFC scene with Samwell) so we only really see her as she sees herself, which is still as Arya Horseface who was never as fair as her sister.
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 23:46:36
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Master Shaf, I've read somewhere that people think that Daario is Jaqen.
Any theories on that? Also, of course, who the other two "heads of the dragon" are?
"First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire." |
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Shaf
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 00:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Vassor Doss
Master Shaf, I've read somewhere that people think that Daario is Jaqen.
Any theories on that? Also, of course, who the other two "heads of the dragon" are?
Heh. That's the trouble with introducing a character able to change his appearance. Pretty soon people start thinking he's everyone.
First off, I assume you mean Syrio, not Daario. Daario is the free-spirited mercernary that is currently with Daenerys's crew (IIRC he was the captain of a mercenary band that defected to Dany's group prior to her conquest of Yunkai) who has relentlessly been trying to get into Dany's pants. It doesn't make any sense for him to be Jaqen since Jaqen is almost certainly now in Oldtown (he was the "Alchemist" that Pate met in the aFfC prologue and is likely now masquerading as Pate in the Citadel for purposes unclear; Pate's description of him is identical to Arya's after Jaqen "changes") and it wouldn't be possible even for a Faceless Man to be on two continents at once.
Syrio Forel, the ex First Sword of Braavos, was Arya's "dancing master" in King's Landing who taught her some swordplay in aGoT. Theories that he was an identity of the Faceless Man we know as Jaqen H'gar are somewhat popular for a few reasons:
- Though Syrio supposedly died at the hands of Meryn Trant protecting Arya during Ned's fall from grace, Arya ran away before we actually saw him die.
- If Syrio didn't die, chances seem good he would have been thrown in one of the Black Cells of the Red Keep; Jaqen was pulled for the Night's Watch from one of the black cells, along with Rorge and Biter.
- Jaqen seemed to know Arya's true name.
- Jaqen and Syrio had similar speech patterns, both being from the free cities (Jaqen was Lorathi, Syrio was Braavosi).
However, I pretty vehemently don't buy it. A few points in the theory's disfavor:
- Jaqen needn't actually known Arya's true name. He knew that Arya was lying about her true name but didn't know exactly what it was. We know from Arya's experiences with Faceless Men Training in Braavos that it in pary involves training to be a human lie detector.
- There is no logical reason for Meryn Trant not to have killed Syrio (particualrly since Trant emerged from their fight apparently unscathed). If for some reason he did take Syrio captive (presuming he was able), there's no reason to suspect they would have let him take the black so easily.
- Syrio/Jaqen would have needed to undergo a rather drastic physical transformation upon being thrown in the Black Cells. One would think that the gaoler would have noticed. We actually meet the gaoler in charge of the black cells in aFfC: Jaime talks to him about Tyrion's disappearence. He is described as a very fastidious, detail-oriented person; there's no way he wouldn't have noticed something like a prisoner that was slight and bald-headed emerging as someone with a half-red, half-black head of hair.
- We get a glimps of the gaoler's records in aFfC and while it mentions Ned's induction into the Black Cells, there's no mention of Syrio's being thrown in. The two would have been very close to one another in timeline, so you'd think it would have appeared in the gaoler's records too.
- It serves no thematic or dramatic purpose that I can see, other than the wish fulfillment of people who think that Syrio was too cool to die.
Syrio is dead. |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 23:55:01
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Actually I never thought that Syrio survived. I highly doubt that Ser Mandon wouldn't have been able to deal with him, since he survived the encounter. I asked because I read about a possible Daario/Jacqen link. Daario's style reminds me alot of Jacqen, and the fact that he seems to be pretty skillful with the arahks(sp?) may indicate a certain fighting prowess.
But I just read the prologue to AFOC and the description of the Alchemist is exactly as the description as the person that Jaqen changes into after the "Weasel's Soup" incident.
Can't believe I missed that one.
How about any possible "heads of the dragon"? Obviously Jon should be considered. But who else?
"First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire." |
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Shaf
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 15:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Vassor Doss
Actually I never thought that Syrio survived. I highly doubt that Ser Mandon wouldn't have been able to deal with him, since he survived the encounter. I asked because I read about a possible Daario/Jacqen link. Daario's style reminds me alot of Jacqen, and the fact that he seems to be pretty skillful with the arahks(sp?) may indicate a certain fighting prowess.
Heh. Okay. Forgive me for the long tangent, then; I'd never heard the Jaqen = Daario idea before.
quote:
But I just read the prologue to AFOC and the description of the Alchemist is exactly as the description as the person that Jaqen changes into after the "Weasel's Soup" incident.
Can't believe I missed that one.
It's easy to miss. There are a lot of characters and a lot of descriptions in these books to keep track of. Another hint is that when Pate asks The Alchemist who he is, he responds "no one, in truth", which is the normal reply of the Faceless Men.
Another fun factoid from the Citadel prologue: Alleras, the acolyte of the Citadel referred to as "The Sphynx", is actually a girl, one of Oberyn's "sand snake" daughters, Sarella. Sarella's mother was a Summer Islander (thus her status as "the sphynx", a bit of this, a bit of that), Alleras is described fairly androgynously, is very good with the bow (Oberyn trained all of his daughters with weapons), and Prince Doran, when rounding up the Sand Snakes in aFfC, notes that Sarella is out of reach and that she can continue her "little game" in Oldtown. For the kicker, "Alleras" is "Sarella" spelled backwards.
quote:
How about any possible "heads of the dragon"? Obviously Jon should be considered. But who else?
Multiple theories abound, none of them with any real hard evidence. If we keep with the belief that the heads of the dragon must be Targaryen, that limits it somewhat.
Obviously, if R+L=J, Jon is a prime candidate.
Daenerys, to state the blindingly obvious, is another.
This is what fuels much of the speculation that Baby Aegon, whose head Gregor Clegane supposedly smashed on the walls of the bedchamber on the Red Keep, is still alive (that and a bit of deliberately vague correspondence from GRRM when asked about those events, where he was only willing to confirm that Rhaegar and Elia's daughter (Rhaenys? I believe) was killed that day. It's plausible that there was some kind of baby swap performed and that the real Aegon is still running around somewhere. He would be about Jon Snow's age (though Jon is not a candidate due to physical characteristics) and we don't have too many candidates. Edric Dayne has the physical characteristics but is many years too young (he's only 12), Gerold Dayne ("Darkstar") is another possibility, the other is that he could have been spirited off to the Free Cities, and could potentially be with the Golden Company mercernaries, who supposedly contain people of Targaryen blood back from the days of the Blackfyre rebellion (which has recently been bought, almost assuredly by Quentyn Martell).
Another possibility is Tyrion. There is some speculation that Tyrion may be Aerys's son, not Tywin's, the result of a rape or an affair between Aerys and Joanna, Tyrion's mother, which helps explain the rift between Tywin and Aerys (many think the whole "Jaime being appointed to the Kingsguard" thing is a little flimsy). Some go so far as to say that Tyrion's deformity could have been caused from an attempted abortion. The fact that he is small, has a talent for designing atypical saddles, and has been obsessed with dragons for a very long time, all play into this as well.
As if that weren't complex enough, over at The Citadel ( http://www.westeros.org/Citadel ) they keep an archive of correspondence fans have had with GRRM and I believe somewhere in there is a letter that states the "heads of the dragon" need not necessarily be a Targaryen. That opens up the possibility that it could be nearly anyone.
As for what I think, I honestly don't have an opinion. |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 00:26:09
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For the two or three people who like this series, Martin answers some questions about ASOIAF in this link from his website:
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20161804,00.html
"What was that, an exhibition? You need emotional content." |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2007 : 07:29:37
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Thanks for the link Vassor.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2007 : 18:58:14
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Sure thing. I like how Martin answered the question about Sansa and Sandor, I didn't pick up on that from the three times I've read the fricken thing. I guess I'll have to read them again.
Have you seen the the link for the new minatures that are coming out on Martin's site? I think they look really really bad. I took one look at Jamie and I almost threw up in disgust.
"What was that, an exhibition? You need emotional content." |
Edited by - Vassor Doss on 01 Dec 2007 19:00:07 |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2007 : 22:59:22
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Yet another nuance to the character I missed. I had gotten a good feel for Stansa's mental state though, that girl is getting jerked around in a whole lot of directions.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2007 : 00:11:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirch
Yet another nuance to the character I missed. I had gotten a good feel for Stansa's mental state though, that girl is getting jerked around in a whole lot of directions.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away
Yeah, talk about an identity crisis. I can't wait to see what else Littlefinger has wrapped up in his sleeve.
"What was that, an exhibition? You need emotional content." |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 19:01:05
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So I see that Mr. Martin updated his website with a new update on Ice and Fire and a new excerpt from Jon Snow. I haven't read it quite yet though.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 21:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirch
So I see that Mr. Martin updated his website with a new update on Ice and Fire and a new excerpt from Jon Snow. I haven't read it quite yet though.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away
Yeah, he mentioned it in his blog the other day. I was waiting for it to be posted. He said that he was hoping to have Dragons out in 2007. Sure.
"Colt 45. It works everytime." |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 21:42:32
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He just posted in his blog that one of his favorite authors died recently, I wonder if it will spur him to work even harder on finishing the series.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 00:24:54
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He's hoping to have it done by the Summer with a release in the US/Canada in the Fall of '08, although he's not promising anything!!!!
I've read Crows three times now and I must say that I'm really liking it more so now than when I first read it. Victarion is my new favorite character and I'm disappointed that now I have to wait for the sequal to Dragons to come out before I can read more about him.
"Colt 45. It works everytime." |
Edited by - Vassor Doss on 04 Jan 2008 03:07:07 |
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Dave
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 22:54:49
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| Want to thank Sirch for recommending these books. I'm on my first re-read and have enjoyed it completely. Like the rest of you can't wait till the next book comes out. |
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A Song of Ice and Fire [Major Spoilers Inside]
