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graren
Junior Member
USA
161 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 01:11:51
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on the issue with the gods in the books, you have to have noticed the parallels to medieval Christainity and pre-Christain European gods.
you have the oldways, more forces of nature, spirits, and mythic creatures then a religious higherarchy. then in the southern end of the continent, a military power unifies all the sovern lands under its rule, and a new religion spreads out from there that is very structured, and setup with a higherarchy that is simmilar to that of the royal courts. the seven faced god sounds like what (and please don't get offended at my for saying this, I mean no offence to anyone) sounds like what happened to Christainity. starts out as a loosely structured Idea, and a positive force that became tangeled up in with the Kings and used as a tool to further controll people, adn to justify keeping "lessor men" (servents, laborors, and other such workers) subservant to those who had money be "divine right" (a sharper sword, and more of them)
I'm not a scientist, statistics have no meaning to me.
I'm an artist, expressions of feeling are how I see the world. |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 21:58:58
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I'm reading Swords again and the scene where Arya converses with Edric Dayne confuses the hell out of me. Damn you George for throwing us off course!
Is it really just a rumor that Ashara kills herself over losing Ned?
Harwin seems to think so (or is he possibly just protecting Arya's feelings?)
Ned and Ashara seems logical because they apparently fell in love at a tourney at Harrenhal before Brandon was killed so Ned was not married to Catelyn. Since Ned is one of the most honorable characters in the series, this would make sense.
Is there anywhere that states how old Jon was when Ned brought him to Winterfell? I'm just trying to figure out when he could have been conceived if the Ned/Ashara pairing is correct. Obviously, it could not have been at the tourney at Harrenhal. Jon would be much older than Robb if that was the case.
"Long days and pleasant nights." |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 23:53:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Vassor Doss
I'm reading Swords again and the scene where Arya converses with Edric Dayne confuses the hell out of me. Damn you George for throwing us off course!
Is it really just a rumor that Ashara kills herself over losing Ned?
Harwin seems to think so (or is he possibly just protecting Arya's feelings?)
Ned and Ashara seems logical because they apparently fell in love at a tourney at Harrenhal before Brandon was killed so Ned was not married to Catelyn. Since Ned is one of the most honorable characters in the series, this would make sense.
Is there anywhere that states how old Jon was when Ned brought him to Winterfell? I'm just trying to figure out when he could have been conceived if the Ned/Ashara pairing is correct. Obviously, it could not have been at the tourney at Harrenhal. Jon would be much older than Robb if that was the case.
"Long days and pleasant nights."
I know, rereading that passage was also damned confusing. The only problem I see with that is that when would Jon be conceived? I thought that Jon Snow is fourteen years old and just a little bit younger then Robb. He would have had to have been with Ashara relatively quickly after leaving Catylen for war.
And close brother/sister relationships do not seem all that uncommon in ASoIF so I can't completely throw out the idea that Ashara killed herself because Ned killed Ser Arthur Dayne.
Very confusing besides and I have taken the stance of waiting to see.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 00:08:11
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Did she kill herself because Ned killed Arthur Dayne or because he left to return to Catelyn?
Another thing that confuses me is the story that Meera tells Bran after they leave Winterfell. The one about the Crannogman knight. Is this an allusion to Lyanna and Rhaegar? Jojen seems surprised that Ned never told Bran this story. What's with that? Why would it be Ned and not Old Nan? There's something there. I'm starting to think that that story mirrors Rhaegar giving Lyanna the champions wreath.
"Long days and pleasant nights." |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 00:40:24
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I agree, I reread that story she told him about four times hoping there was something there but I couldn't find anything solid. Meera and Jojen do seem to think the story is important though.
I feel like were at the edge of something there and I am hoping that when Dance comes out (whenever that is!) it is going to be made more clear. Jon, Dany and Bran being included as a separate set of characters was an interesting move.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Shaf
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 00:15:18
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Heh. As a longtime fan of Martin's series and an avid poster over at the ASOIAF forums (asoiaf.westeros.org) I must say it's fun to come across people all excited about the topic of Jon's parentage; most of us veterans have done this one to death :) Suffice to say that not quite being accepted as canon, the theory that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is very popular among those that know the series well. It even has its own abbreviation, "R+L=J".
One piece of evidence that hasn't been mentioned is that when Daenerys is in the House of the Undying in Qarth in aCoK, where she experiences all of the weird visions, one of them is of a blue rose in a wall of ice. This is probably a reference to Jon, and as blue roses are symbologically tied with Lyanna throughout the series, it seems a clear allusion that Jon is Lyanna's son.
As for the story that Meera Reed tells to Bran in aSoS, it's pretty widely accepted that this story references actual events: specifically Howland Reed's wanderings and his encountering of the Tourney at Harrenhal during the year of the False Spring (a tourney referenced many times throughout the books). This is where Howland (Meera and Jojen's father) first met the Starks; he would later become deep friends with Ned, and was present when Lyanna died. If R+L=J, he's probably the one that reveals it.
Upon approaching Harrenhal Howland was accosted by three squires and later encounters each of the Starks at the feast that night (in the story, Brandon is the Wild Wolf, Ned is the Quiet Wolf, Benjen is the Wolf Pup, Lyanna is the Wolf Maid). There's a quick allusion to the courtship that existed between Ned and Ashara Dayne (the "Quiet Wolf" danced with a woman with violet eyes after being egged on by Brandon).
The next day a mystery knight shows up on the lists with a sigil of a laughing tree, referred to as the Knight of the Laughing Tree (or KotLT for short). The KotLT beats each of the knights that were the mentors of the squires that accosted Howland before losing and disappearing.
Much speculation surrounds the identity of the KotLT, but the most popular theory by far is that the KotLT was actually Lyanna Stark.
We know from Arya's conversation with Harwyn in aSoS that Lyanna was an expert rider, and Jaime mentions at one point that jousting is mostly horsemanship over strength (consider Loras Tyrell's domination at the joust, despite being a willowy youth, unhorsing even Gregor Clegane), so it's plausible.
After the KotLT disappears, it's mentioned that King Aerys ordered Rhaegar to find the identity of the mystery knight. Let's presume for the moment that Rhaegar was successful and discovered Lyanna (for maximum romanticism, assume she was by a pool in the woods, changing out of her armor when Rhaegar stumbled upon her).
Certainly something happened with Rhaegar. He went on to win the tourney and created quite a scandal when it came time to crown the Queen of Love and Beauty he bypassed his own wife (Elia of Dorne) to lay the crown - made of blue winter roses - on Lyanna.
Certainly gives some motivation for the two to run off with one another, nay?
There's a hint of corroboration of this (the barest wisp of a hint at least) when Ned is having the conversation with Arya in aGoT where he gently chastizes her for having the "wolf's blood" in her - i.e. a bit of wildness. He says (paraphrasing) "Lyanna had a touch of it, and Brandon more than a touch. It led them both to an early grave."
Say what? Both of them? We know how Brandon's "Wolf's blood" led him to his grave - after Lyanna's abduction he rode to King's Landing and demanded for Rhaegar to "Come out and die", which led Aerys to execute him for treason. But Lyanna? Isn't the official story that Rhaegar abducted her? How is that her "wolf's blood" leading her to an early grave?
I believe (and am not alone) in thinking this was a bit of a slip-up by Ned that hints that Lyanna played a factor in her own "abduction" which in turn led to her death. Certainly her being the Knight of the Laughing Tree would qualify, dontcha think?
Also, re. the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, a popular offshoot to the the R+L=J theory is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually married in secret (GRRM has confirmed that some Targaryens were polygamistic in addition to marrying siblings). So the KG were actually protecting the rightful heir to the throne (that being Jon)
Sorry for the long post but hopefully this tweaks some imaginations :) |
Edited by - Shaf on 22 Oct 2007 00:24:08 |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 00:41:58
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No way, loved the post. It was very informative, unfortunately I am a ASoIaF noob having only read the books twice so far. The evidence certaintly does seem to point to Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child.
I hadn't thought to connect Lyanna to the KotLT, interesting thought.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 03:52:16
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Yes thanks, Shaf and welcome. It's exciting to have someone else enamoured with Martin's epic. The explanation of Jojen and Meera's story makes perfect sense, and I had not considered Lyanna to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I have to re-read that passage now.
The fact that Lyanna is mentioned (During Ned's imprisonment, I believe)in the same context as Ned and Howland's survival against Arthur Dayne and co. leads me to believe that they were protecting her and her son. Again, the "promise me" line is used and it just doesn't make sense for Ned to think back on that battle and also his sister making sure that Ned would bury her at Winterfell. The "promise me" has to have more meaning. Protecting Jon from Robert and Tywin would make sense.
"First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire." |
Edited by - Vassor Doss on 22 Oct 2007 03:53:19 |
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graren
Junior Member
USA
161 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 05:06:52
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The thing that bugs me about Jon having a father other then Ned is how often it is mentioned that Jon looks more like Ned then Ned's rightfully born children.
I'm not a scientist, statistics have no meaning to me.
I'm an artist, expressions of feeling are how I see the world. |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 05:19:59
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I think I said this way earlier in the thread but it's buried somewhere. The other child that is always said to carry the Stark traits is Arya whom Ned says looks like Lyanna. Maybe they both just look like Lyanna. =P
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 14:57:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirch
I think I said this way earlier in the thread but it's buried somewhere. The other child that is always said to carry the Stark traits is Arya whom Ned says looks like Lyanna. Maybe they both just look like Lyanna. =P
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away
I just can't picture a whole war being started over a woman who's face looks like a horse. If Arya looks like Lyanna, then Lyanna must have been pretty busted, not someone I'd picture Robert and Rhaegar to fight over.
"First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire." |
Edited by - Vassor Doss on 22 Oct 2007 14:57:53 |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 18:26:26
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In Feast for Crows the priest of the many faced god tells her:
"Or would you sooner be a courtesan, and have songs sung of your beauty? Speak the word, and we will send you to the Black Pearl or the Daughter of the Dusk. You will sleep on rose petals and wear silken skirts that rustle when you walk, and great lords will beggar themselves for your maiden's blood."
That's from pg 318 in the hardcover.
And again... pg 221 PB:
"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes.You even look like her."
"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled.
Arya's just a girl, she still has time to grow into it.
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Shaf
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 18:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by graren
The thing that bugs me about Jon having a father other then Ned is how often it is mentioned that Jon looks more like Ned then Ned's rightfully born children.
Arya is rather consistently described as the only one of Ned's trueborn children that looks like a Stark, and as Lyanna is her closest Stark relative, the comparison is probably inevitable. That's not to say that they looked absolutely identical.
As for the genetics in Martin's world (such as they are), it's fairly well determined that some houses have genes that are more dominant than others. That's how Ned figures out that Cersei's kids are not by Robert: all of Robert's illegitimate children had his dark hair, regardless of what the mother looked like. The Lannister traits were recessive in comparison, so the fact that Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella have blond hair led Ned to (rightfully) conclude that the kids were Jaime's.
Similarly the Targaryen traits (silver hair, violet eyes) seem like they would be similarly recessive. That would be one explanation for why the Targs historically wed brother to sister to "keep the bloodlines pure". So if R+L=J, it makes sense that Jon would look more a Stark than a Targaryen.
quote:
I just can't picture a whole war being started over a woman who's face looks like a horse. If Arya looks like Lyanna, then Lyanna must have been pretty busted, not someone I'd picture Robert and Rhaegar to fight over.
Every indication is that Lyanna was very beautiful. Of course, it's not out of the question that Arya will grow into her womanhood and become very beautiful in her own right. Lyanna was a tomboy and may not have been pegged at an early age to be beautiful when grown, but people change. The courtesans in Braavos in aFfC certainly seem to think that Arya would do very well in their trade, at the very least. |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 18:51:01
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Good point about her possibly "growing" more beautiful as she nears womanhood. Gendry does seem to be somewhat attracted to her, or at least he's a bit flirty. She may have grown out of the "horse face" when she began her teens. I don't think Martin really describes her as "horse like" after she leaves King's Landing. He never says that she looks beautiful when she's made to wear dresses (when she's with Dondarrion). I think Martin only mentions that she's uncomfortable in them, not necessarily how see looks physically. I guess I just assumed that she's still ugly.
"First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire." |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 04:04:47
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I'll start taking bets on the length of Dance when it's finished. 1k pages? 1.5k pages? =D
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Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would go away |
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Topic |
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A Song of Ice and Fire [Major Spoilers Inside]
