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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 23:31:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirch
For the sake of sparking discussion and see what the denizens of this board think about this theory I have been hearing. Well Ill just lay the theory out there.
Warning for those who havent read the series yet posts here could start containing huge spoilers over the story.
So heres the theory, Jon Snow is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Ill throw out some of the 'evidence' for it later but I wanna see what people think about that idea. 
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge
It is totally plausible. Robert's total disdain for Rhaegar could be attributed to the fact that the Lyanna loved Rhaegar more than him.
There are countless passages where Robert is pining for Lyanna's missed love. He makes Rhaegar out to be a rapist and cold blooded killer, when actually we find out later that that that may only be half-true.
Plus, doesn't Lyanna on her death bed make Eddard promise her something? It could possibly be that she died during child birth and was fearful of her new born son's life at the hands of Robert.
If this is so, what I don't understand is how come Jon looks so much like Eddard? There are a few passages where he and Arya are described as being the only two children that look like Eddard and not Catelyn, which leads one to believe that he is Eddard's son.
"Per me si va ne l'etterno dolore" - Dante Alighieri |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 00:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Vassor Doss
quote:
Originally posted by Sirch
For the sake of sparking discussion and see what the denizens of this board think about this theory I have been hearing. Well Ill just lay the theory out there.
Warning for those who havent read the series yet posts here could start containing huge spoilers over the story.
So heres the theory, Jon Snow is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Ill throw out some of the 'evidence' for it later but I wanna see what people think about that idea.
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge
It is totally plausible. Robert's total disdain for Rhaegar could be attributed to the fact that the Lyanna loved Rhaegar more than him.
There are countless passages where Robert is pining for Lyanna's missed love. He makes Rhaegar out to be a rapist and cold blooded killer, when actually we find out later that that that may only be half-true.
Plus, doesn't Lyanna on her death bed make Eddard promise her something? It could possibly be that she died during child birth and was fearful of her new born son's life at the hands of Robert.
If this is so, what I don't understand is how come Jon looks so much like Eddard? There are a few passages where he and Arya are described as being the only two children that look like Eddard and not Catelyn, which leads one to believe that he is Eddard's son.
"Per me si va ne l'etterno dolore" - Dante Alighieri
Ah I thought of that one too but also remember Eddard remarks Arya looks like Lyanna.
Passage: "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."
It's a interesting similarity.
Ive been going through a reread of the book and the argument actually seems likely to me now, there are lots of compelling plot peices. The promise Lyanna requests is never fully explained but Eddard remembers it at the oddest times.
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 00:46:22
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There's so many compelling plot pieces and it's difficult to keep up with them all. I think I have to go back and re-read them again myself. Thanks Sirch...there goes another month of my life.
"Per me si va ne l'etterno dolore" - Dante Alighieri |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 00:55:55
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Ah well, im a little bit attached to subplots so when I heard about the idea of this one I made up my mind the check it out. 
My books have a mess of post-it notes sticking out of them.
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge |
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Dark Magik
Junior Member
USA
240 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 01:27:50
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wat ages would u recomend the books for? they sound good...i might have to get them.
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"Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." –Raistlin Dragons of Autumn Twilight
'Count me in,' said Tasslehoff, sitting up and rubbing his eyes. 'What are we doing?'" |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 01:30:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Magik
wat ages would u recomend the books for? they sound good...i might have to get them.
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"Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." –Raistlin Dragons of Autumn Twilight
'Count me in,' said Tasslehoff, sitting up and rubbing his eyes. 'What are we doing?'"
Same rules apply as a "R" rated movie. Not suitable for people under 18 yrs of age, unless accompanied by an adult.
"Per me si va ne l'etterno dolore" - Dante Alighieri |
Edited by - Vassor Doss on 02 Feb 2007 04:06:27 |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 01:55:12
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As Vassor said, these books would be rated R or M. I would not suggest them for a young teen.
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge |
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Carlin
Junior Member
Australia
112 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 02:51:49
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| omg - I was thinking the same thing about Jon - Arya and Jon are compared in Ice & Fire and Eddard does say that Arya looks like Lyanna...it would also explain that although Eddard loved and respected Caitlin above all others, he would not give Jon up when he was an infant and it would seem that as honourable as Eddard was it was unlikely that he would have sowed a bastard and then took it away with him to the North...I'm a little dubious about Rhaegar as the father, but who else (that we know of) could it be? It makes a fitting reason why Robert hated him so completely...jealousy makes one most intolerable to the entirety of another human being. |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 03:15:16
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There are a few reasonw hy Rhaegar would be considered as the father. One would be his apparent affection for her.
Passage: Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost.
I bolded the peice with blue roses because... the memory of Lyanna seem to frequently include blue flowers.
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge |
Edited by - Sirch on 02 Feb 2007 03:15:41 |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 03:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirch
There are a few reasonw hy Rhaegar would be considered as the father. One would be his apparent affection for her.
Passage: Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost.
I bolded the peice with blue roses because... the memory of Lyanna seem to frequently include blue flowers.
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge
You're right. I do remember blue roses being mentioned quite a bit.
"Per me si va ne l'etterno dolore" - Dante Alighieri |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 18:36:00
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Any more conspiracy theories, Sirch? I'm re-reading Thrones right now and I'm trying to pick up subtle clues. I'm highlighting anything that has to do with Jon's heritage and Rhaegar/Lyanna.
This may be something, but I could be reading into it too much. It's the scene in the beginning when Ned talks to Catelyn about whether Jon Snow will stay at Winterfell or go with Ned to Kings Landing. Catelyn remembers the first and only time she asks Ned the truth about Jon's mother and if she may be Ashara Dayne. Ned yells, "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I'd like to know how you came by that name."
Why doesn't Ned say "son" here instead of "blood"? And why is he so angry? Is he getting defensive because he is ashamed of his infidelity? He seems over anxious and determined to find out how Catelyn heard the rumor, as if he is afraid of someone knowing the truth. If Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents, then that would make Ned his Uncle. Was this a slip of the tongue by Ned in his anger? I know that sometimes when you're angry you say things you don't mean, but it seems that Ned would have referred to Jon as his son in this scene even though he was angry, if it was true.
But I'm probably over analyzing everything now since this theory was brought up. "Blood" can mean any relative, including "son".
I'm starting to really believe that Ned is not really Jon's father. Ned seems to be too honorable to have actually cheated on his newly pregnant wife. Now Robert, he's a different sort. And Martin goes to great lenghts to highlight the differences between the two in the early stages of Thrones. We know that Robert is unfaithful to Cersei. Ned cheating on Catelyn is so out of character and it doesn't really make sense.
"Per me si va ne l'etterno dolore" - Dante Alighieri |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 19:16:56
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That was a part of it, something interesting is that Ned thinks to himself twice I beleive that hes been lying for fourteen years and he hates it. Jon is 14 at that time that these thoughts are being had. One of the times he thinks it is when he's in the prison and the other is when hes talking to Robert about Jaime sitting on the throne.
Later when he is in prison he singles Jon out in his thoughts, thinking he would like to talk to him just once more.
Passage: The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him...
The fact that Ned gets so irate every time Jon's parents are mentioned is suspect, why would that upset him so much?
Last thing would be is that he has little to no problem sending Jon to the wall, he would be safe from robert there and... there is another Targaryen there!
That thing about the he's of my blood is interesting but I didn't include it because blood could also mean my son.
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 19:38:39
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Wow that's crazy. There's so much stuff to digest in these books. I remember that part when Ned was in prison, but I thought he wanted to apologize for cheating on Catelyn and fathering him as a bastard.
And that would explain why Maester Aemon acted weird with Jon.
Can you see a possible Targaryen union of nephew and aunt in the future?
"Per me si va ne l'etterno dolore" - Dante Alighieri |
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Sirch
Advanced Member
USA
2668 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 20:05:44
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I dunno, sometimes I think im just reading too much into it and having a lot of wishful thinking. But I do really enjoy looking for subplots and uncovering mysteries.
In anycase, a interesting dream Jon had that I thought was suspect.
Passage from page 267 from Thrones:
Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." ... "Even teh ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a stark, that this isnt my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream."
I know that is a long passage and may seem out of place but it had to be included for some reason.
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Thats the inherit beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front! - Sarge |
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Vassor Doss
Advanced Member
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 21:05:28
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Jon says a few times in the beginning of Thrones that he's not a Stark. It could be that he's referring to not being a "true born" Stark. Who knows?
Now that I'm re-reading it with the idea that Jon could be a Targaryen, all these subtle clues tend to make sense.
"Per me si va ne l'etterno dolore" - Dante Alighieri |
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A Song of Ice and Fire [Major Spoilers Inside]
